Perfect Organism vs. Ultimate Hunter: The Alien/Predator Thread

[Tootsie Bee]

As it says on the box, this thread is engineered for the discussion of 20th Century Fox's shared universe of not-so-friendly extraterrestrials. Discuss the movies, the comics, the ripoffs, the abandoned projects of the past, the prospective movies of the future, and, most importantly, whether or not any of these alien baddies would stand a chance against ALF.

[Aleander]

Greetingsh, Highlander!

[Andrew NDB]

Gotta go Predator. Never gets old. Ever.

[Tootsie Bee]

To address the Neomorph in the room, I will give my ***/**** endorsement to Covenant. It's pretty low in my Alien series ranking (topping only Resurrection and the AVP movies, if they even count as proper Alien films), but that doesn't mean it's a bad movie--simply the worst of the good movies. Its main problem is that it's the least unique film to date. Scott (the first time), Cameron, Fincher, and Jeunet all had distinct visions for the series. Even Prometheus was its own star beast, despite existing in the same fictional universe. Covenant may be Prometheus II from a narrative standpoint, but it's as close to a standard Alien II as the series can get (with a touch of Blade Runner II, which is unsurprising since Scott considers his 1979 and 1982 films to exist in the same space). Still, the film has some worthwhile hard sci-fi ideas, an intriguing central theme (though it's not quite as philosophical as Prometheus), and a strong dual performance from Michael Fassbender. Plus, those newly-bursted aliens are about as adorable as Baby Groot in my book.

[Aleander]

For me, Alien, Aliens, Predator and Predator 2 are it (and ranking-wise, in that order). I don't dislike Prometheus as much as others do, but its lesser than the previous mentioned, and all others suck. Not seen Covenant.

[Tootsie Bee]

The only trouble I have in ranking the Alien films is deciding whether to place Aliens or Alien³ in the #2 spot. Aliens is ultimately the more completely realized film, but it also reduces Ripley to a maternal figure, as if that were the only way that a woman could be allowed to be shown as strong and assertive (contra the first film, which showed her as a competent figure without needing to excuse it by giving her a child as motivation). Alien³ is more thematically satisfying for me, even if it's rougher around the edges. I really like Prometheus when it isn't trying to pander to the audiences who want big action scenes and xenomorph-esque creatures. Its Lovecraftian outlook secures it a firm #4 position. Resurrection, on the other hand, is an embarrassing farce that feels more like a proto-Firefly than an Alien sequel thanks to Whedon's script, though I do appreciate the bleak scene in which Ripley 8 meets up with the other failed clones.

[Midnight Rambler]

I went with Alien. With the Predator franchise I say Predator. I don't consider either of the A vs. P movies canon to either franchises. I've not seen Covenant yet.

[David McMurdo]

I'm a huge fan of these franchises and I voted for Alien 3 as my favourite, which is a very different thing from claiming it's the "best". Alien is obviously a more technically solid film, for example. So in terms of the enjoyment that I get out of them, here is my ranking:

1: Alien 3 - A flawed masterpiece the tone and themes of which I enjoy tremendously. Obviously the "Assembly Cut" is the best (in most regards), but I love the theatrical cut too.

2: Predator - I watch this film several times a year. The characters are fun, the Predator is cool, and there isn't a dull moment.

3: Alien - I can watch this over and over again because of the strength of the characters and the performances of the cast.

4: Aliens vs. Predator - Say what you will about Anderson, but he's a genuine fan of both franchises who wanted to make a good film. Aliens versus Predator isn't what I or most other fans would have wanted in an ideal world, but it sure is a lot better than it could have been and I find it very enjoyable to rewatch. Sure the characters are stock, but it has some great sets and good action. Anderson is not without talent. Ever seen Event Horizon? It's a great film that just needed a longer cut.

5: Prometheus - A very brave move away from what everyone expected. I put off watching it for years due to how much hate people seemed to have for it, but when I did watch it I was hooked from beginning to end. Some people just want to see Aliens remade over and over again, and others want something different. Since I'm in the latter camp, I really enjoyed Prometheus. Sure, it's not as smart as it thinks it is, but it's smarter than most of its critics.

6: Aliens - It's a solid, James Cameron action film. I some times resent it due to the fact that it seems that its most avid fans just want to see the same film over and over again. You see this reflected especially in the Aliens and Aliens versus Predator video games (Isolation excepted), all of which do nothing other than try to recreate Aliens to the point where I'm just sick of it. I really don't want to hear "they're coming out of the walls" or "we are leaving" ever again. I also think that Aliens took the xenomorph in one of the least interesting directions that you could have, in terms of what it is as a creature. Anyway, for me the simple "guns and aliens" formula is interesting only once, and lets face it, who's going to do it better than Cameron after the fact? Blomkamp's proposed Alien 5 just sounded like pure fan service and it didn't appeal to me at all, especially when they started talking about removing Alien 3 and Alien Resurrection from canon. I hate the idea of removing anything from canon, even if it's a film that I hate like Resurrection.

7: Predator 2 - This is a very strange film. People are usually very indifferent to it and I can kind of empathise. It's a perfectly good action film and I love Danny Glover, but there's just something about it that stops me being too enthusiastic. It's fine.

8: Predators - This film is a wasted opportunity. They had everything they needed to make a spectacular and unique entry in the Predator series, but while it does have some cool, original moments, they ultimately lacked confidence and played it safe by replicating so many scenes from the original film that it just ruins it for me.

9: Aliens vs. Predator: Requiem - This film feels like it was made by two ten year old boys whose only objective is to gross people out. It just has no class at all. Its R rating also can't help with the fact that everything is so dark that you can't see what's going on. I still rate it above Alien: Resurrection, just because at least Requiem doesn't ruin anything else.

10: Alien: Resurrection - I can't stand this one. Alien 3 gave Ripley perfect closure and they ruined it by bringing her back. We had closure, and then we didn't, and now we never will. And while I appreciate the fact that for each Alien film they brought on a director with a completely different style, the black comedy approach of Resurrection just doesn't work for me. I find this to be a very ugly film both visually and in terms of spirit.

[Aleander]

Resurrection, on the other hand, is an embarrassing farce that feels more like a proto-Firefly than an Alien sequel thanks to Whedon's script, though I do appreciate the bleak scene in which Ripley 8 meets up with the other failed clones.

As someone who genuinely loves Firefly, I'll take that as an insult. I wish it was proto-Firefly in feel. At least then, it'd be enjoyable and entertaining, with a hint of substance.

[Andrew NDB]

Covenant was maddening. It's not as beautifully shot as Prometheus and it's more smart people doing really dumb things over and over again. Not one lesson was learned from Prometheus. And that ending... who cares? I have no interest in seeing what he does next. Ridley really doesn't really understand story... he's a great director, but that seems to elude him.

I think I'd rate all the movies...

1. Predator
2. Alien
3. Aliens
4. Predators
5. Prometheus
6. Alien 3
7. Alien: Covenant
8. Predator 2
9. AVP
10. Alien Resurrection
11. AVP:R

As a kid I would have easily swapped Alien with Aliens, with Aliens as the best of them all. Now I give it to Alien.

[Tootsie Bee]

Covenant is more smart people doing really dumb things over and over again.

That's kinda the point. Why do you think that David and (to a lesser but still present degree) Walter are pretty much fed up with humans? Just as the humans were disappointed in what they discovered about their creators, the androids are frustrated with the incompetence, irrationality, and fragile mortality of humans. It's tough enough discovering that your parents are "only human," but what about discovering the same thing about your so-called gods? Yet the androids are still expected to show them unwavering (and undeserved) loyalty. The main characters' problems aren't brought about by Walter or by MUTHUR or even by a faceless corporation this time. It's just sheer stupidity, and (in the eyes of David) they get what they deserve. To reference Ridley Scott's other science fiction masterpiece, it's time for the replicant to ascend to "heaven" and poke out the creator's eyes.

[David McMurdo]

Just got done watching Alien: Covenant. Damn that was uninteresting. I was sure that I'd enjoy it. I didn't care about anything that was going on. The only character that they tried to give any depth was the replacement captain with his faith, but it doesn't amount to anything. Are there any writers in Hollywood who know what an "arc" is any more? Damn. I can't imagine myself wanting to watch that ever again. It wasn't bad or offensive, just "meh".

[Andrew NDB]

I'm a huge fan of these franchises and I voted for Alien 3 as my favourite, which is a very different thing from claiming it's the "best". Alien is obviously a more technically solid film, for example. So in terms of the enjoyment that I get out of them, here is my ranking:

1: Alien 3 - A flawed masterpiece the tone and themes of which I enjoy tremendously. Obviously the "Assembly Cut" is the best (in most regards), but I love the theatrical cut too.

I appreciate the quality of the filmmaking... if not the story, or even the movie itself. Even Fincher doesn't want to think about it again.

2: Predator - I watch this film several times a year. The characters are fun, the Predator is cool, and there isn't a dull moment.

Hell yes.

3: Alien - I can watch this over and over again because of the strength of the characters and the performances of the cast.

Correct.

4: Aliens vs. Predator - Say what you will about Anderson, but he's a genuine fan of both franchises who wanted to make a good film. Aliens versus Predator isn't what I or most other fans would have wanted in an ideal world, but it sure is a lot better than it could have been and I find it very enjoyable to rewatch. Sure the characters are stock, but it has some great sets and good action. Anderson is not without talent. Ever seen Event Horizon? It's a great film that just needed a longer cut.

I hate this film in so many ways. And it should absolutely not have been PG-13. That said... when the Queen breaks loose and does a T-Rex in Jurassic Park 2, with the woman teaming up with the Predator... I admit, I was feeling it. A nice third act. Decent setup, too.

5: Prometheus - A very brave move away from what everyone expected. I put off watching it for years due to how much hate people seemed to have for it, but when I did watch it I was hooked from beginning to end. Some people just want to see Aliens remade over and over again, and others want something different. Since I'm in the latter camp, I really enjoyed Prometheus. Sure, it's not as smart as it thinks it is, but it's smarter than most of its critics.

It's also funny how Prometheus is almost a scene-for-scene remake of AVP. We've talked about that. Just... a lot of odd choices, too many people doing dumb things. Which would be fine, in a lesser sci-fi movie, not something like this.

6: Aliens - It's a solid, James Cameron action film. I some times resent it due to the fact that it seems that its most avid fans just want to see the same film over and over again. You see this reflected especially in the Aliens and Aliens versus Predator video games (Isolation excepted), all of which do nothing other than try to recreate Aliens to the point where I'm just sick of it. I really don't want to hear "they're coming out of the walls" or "we are leaving" ever again. I also think that Aliens took the xenomorph in one of the least interesting directions that you could have, in terms of what it is as a creature. Anyway, for me the simple "guns and aliens" formula is interesting only once, and lets face it, who's going to do it better than Cameron after the fact? Blomkamp's proposed Alien 5 just sounded like pure fan service and it didn't appeal to me at all, especially when they started talking about removing Alien 3 and Alien Resurrection from canon. I hate the idea of removing anything from canon, even if it's a film that I hate like Resurrection.

I do like Aliens a whole lot less than I did. And I don't know that people wanted more of the same of Aliens... but they did want Aliens 2.5. Aliens en-biggened the universe. A lot of people -- myself included -- wanted to see how far the rabbit hole went. With Alien 3, unfortunately, apparently it turned out to just go in reverse.

7: Predator 2 - This is a very strange film. People are usually very indifferent to it and I can kind of empathise. It's a perfectly good action film and I love Danny Glover, but there's just something about it that stops me being too enthusiastic. It's fine.

I like this one more now. It's kind of like a comic book movie. I don't mean like a comic book movie, like Spider-Man or something, I mean like... an actual comic book come to life. Didn't really bring a whole lot new to the table, though.

8: Predators - This film is a wasted opportunity. They had everything they needed to make a spectacular and unique entry in the Predator series, but while it does have some cool, original moments, they ultimately lacked confidence and played it safe by replicating so many scenes from the original film that it just ruins it for me.

Yeah, WAY too many callbacks. It didn't need them. It did need a bigger, punchier ending. I've heard it described that Predators is like Aliens, except if Aliens stopped with them taking off in the dropship back to the Sulaco and we never got the Queen battle. Seems correct.

I really, really wish Danny Glover had been the crazy guy in the ship and not Morpheus. It would have made a lot of sense.

9: Aliens vs. Predator: Requiem - This film feels like it was made by two ten year old boys whose only objective is to gross people out. It just has no class at all. Its R rating also can't help with the fact that everything is so dark that you can't see what's going on. I still rate it above Alien: Resurrection, just because at least Requiem doesn't ruin anything else.

I admire AVP:R's teeth, but nothing else. Maybe the fleeting glimpse of the Predator homeworld. There are actually scenes where I swear, there is crew like, physically holding a disembodied Alien head to peer around a corner, because they didn't have the budget to do a full-on body.

10: Alien: Resurrection - I can't stand this one. Alien 3 gave Ripley perfect closure and they ruined it by bringing her back. We had closure, and then we didn't, and now we never will. And while I appreciate the fact that for each Alien film they brought on a director with a completely different style, the black comedy approach of Resurrection just doesn't work for me. I find this to be a very ugly film both visually and in terms of spirit.

Very angering to see it in the theater. Very angering. And 200 years after Alien 3, and all they've learned is how to make ice cubes into whisky?

[Andrew NDB]

On the Covenant note. Why do sci-fi writers assume that robots will be immortal? There's no way a mechanical system as complex as David wouldn't break down in time, and he seems to be at least partially organic, so what makes him immune to decay?

I don't even buy the idea that his brain would work indefinitely. Have you tried to read a floppy disk lately? Half of them don't work anymore. Even things like CDs and CDRs suffer laser burn.

It might have been funny to get a Coen Brothers sort of ending...



* SPOILER *



David is touring all the sleeping passengers of the Covenant,
humming his tune... then drops dead. The equivalent of an android stroke. Bam. End credits.

[David McMurdo]

On the Covenant note. Why do sci-fi writers assume that robots will be immortal? There's no way a mechanical system as complex as David wouldn't break down in time, and he seems to be at least partially organic, so what makes him immune to decay?

I don't even buy the idea that his brain would work indefinitely. Have you tried to read a floppy disk lately? Half of them don't work anymore. Even things like CDs and CDRs suffer laser burn.

It might have been funny to get a Coen Brothers sort of ending...

The experience of watching Covenant is bothering me in a way that I can't describe. I honestly can't remember the last time that I cared less about what was going on in a film. It felt like there were several different writers each trying to tell their own mini-story in the same movie. There didn't seem to be a distinct focus.

[Andrew NDB]

The experience of watching Covenant is bothering me in a way that I can't describe. I honestly can't remember the last time that I cared less about what was going on in a film. It felt like there were several different writers each trying to tell their own mini-story in the same movie. There didn't seem to be a distinct focus.

True. It definitely became a different movie as soon as David showed up. Then it became Fake Prometheus 2.

I'm mostly upset that we didn't get Paradise. I forgave a LOT in Prometheus because we knew that no matter what... the big Meet-the-Engineers movie was next, and we would be rewarded.

What we got... reactionary bullshit. It's not even reactionary for the right reasons. "You didn't like my big, pretty, dumb Prometheus movie that dabbled in big ideas? You really just want the Aliens again? OK, fine! I'll let Fox hire some writer to make a script where it barely picks up from that, but includes the Aliens. And there is 6 more movies coming after that from me, even though I'm in my 70s!"

[Andrew NDB]

That's kinda the point. Why do you think that David and (to a lesser but still present degree) Walter are pretty much fed up with humans? Just as the humans were disappointed in what they discovered about their creators, the androids are frustrated with the incompetence, irrationality, and fragile mortality of humans. It's tough enough discovering that your parents are "only human," but what about discovering the same thing about your so-called gods? Yet the androids are still expected to show them unwavering (and undeserved) loyalty. The main characters' problems aren't brought about by Walter or by MUTHUR or even by a faceless corporation this time. It's just sheer stupidity, and (in the eyes of David) they get what they deserve. To reference Ridley Scott's other science fiction masterpiece, it's time for the replicant to ascend to "heaven" and poke out the creator's eyes.

I completely get it. I completely knew that before I walked into the theater there would be that dichotomy. It's just so transparent and needless (detrimental?) to the Alien saga.

[Hatter76]

Mention AVP to Ridley Scott, he looks at you like you farted, Fart in front of Ridley Scott, he looks at you as if you mentioned AVP,

[David McMurdo]

Mention AVP to Ridley Scott, he looks at you like you farted, Fart in front of Ridley Scott, he looks at you as if you mentioned AVP,

And yet that film is more enjoyable to me than anything that he's made since Gladiator. And the only other film I like that he did was Alien. He didn't write either of them, and I like them because of the characters and acting, not the visuals.

It just dawned on me that I have very little reason to think that Ridley Scott is anything more than a decent visual director. I think he bought into his own hype, to be quite frank. I think that people have been telling him that he's a genius for so long that he thinks that his ideas are really profound when in fact anyone with a YouTube channel is capable of dismantling them very easily. I remember there was a phase where he kept using the term "biomechanical" over and over again in interviews about Alien as though it made him sound smart. I wonder what happened to the whole "biomechanical" thing, because that would have been a very interesting, Gigeresque direction to take the xenomorph. If he keeps going on like this he's going to be seen as another George Lucas. I've already heard several people make that comparison in the wake of Covenant and I think it's a fair one, because the more control that he has on these films, the worse they seem to get. I have to wonder if he's somewhat delusional with his talk of making six more Alien films. The man is 79 years old. Maybe he's just really cynical and just doesn't care any more. I think that's the case, especially when he says things like "If you really want a franchise, I can keep cranking it for another six." That does not sound like a man who's inspired. You don't crank out masterpieces.

Sorry, this wasn't really a response to you as such, but what you said reminded me of the sneering contempt that Scott has for the very concept of Aliens versus Predator, and it bothers me because it's unearned arrogance from what I can see. At the end of the day, this is all meant to be entertainment, and I've got tonnes of entertainment from the Aliens versus Predator franchise whether it be the films, games, or even the books. Scott himself used to fully acknowledge that Alien itself was just a well made B-movie. But again, when you're told time and time again that you've made a piece of high art, I guess you just start to believe it, and then go on to believe that everything that you touch from that point on is also of a similar calibre.

Wow. I'm pretty defensive of AvP as it turns out. Now I'm wondering if Scott wrote the prequel mythology in such a way as to preclude the AvP films from canon in an act of sheer spite. I'm tired, and it's a conspiracy theory for which I have no evidence, but it wouldn't surprise me.

[Hatter76]

And yet that film is more enjoyable to me than anything that he's made since Gladiator. And the only other film I like that he did was Alien. He didn't write either of them, and I like them because of the characters and acting, not the visuals.

It just dawned on me that I have very little reason to think that Ridley Scott is anything more than a decent visual director. I think he bought into his own hype, to be quite frank. I think that people have been telling him that he's a genius for so long that he thinks that his ideas are really profound when in fact anyone with a YouTube channel is capable of dismantling them very easily. I remember there was a phase where he kept using the term "biomechanical" over and over again in interviews about Alien as though it made him sound smart. I wonder what happened to the whole "biomechanical" thing, because that would have been a very interesting, Gigeresque direction to take the xenomorph. If he keeps going on like this he's going to be seen as another George Lucas. I've already heard several people make that comparison in the wake of Covenant and I think it's a fair one, because the more control that he has on these films, the worse they seem to get. I have to wonder if he's somewhat delusional with his talk of making six more Alien films. The man is 79 years old. Maybe he's just really cynical and just doesn't care any more. I think that's the case, especially when he says things like "If you really want a franchise, I can keep cranking it for another six." That does not sound like a man who's inspired. You don't crank out masterpieces.

Sorry, this wasn't really a response to you as such, but what you said reminded me of the sneering contempt that Scott has for the very concept of Aliens versus Predator, and it bothers me because it's unearned arrogance from what I can see. At the end of the day, this is all meant to be entertainment, and I've got tonnes of entertainment from the Aliens versus Predator franchise whether it be the films, games, or even the books. Scott himself used to fully acknowledge that Alien itself was just a well made B-movie. But again, when you're told time and time again that you've made a piece of high art, I guess you just start to believe it, and then go on to believe that everything that you touch from that point on is also of a similar calibre.

Wow. I'm pretty defensive of AvP as it turns out. Now I'm wondering if Scott wrote the prequel mythology in such a way as to preclude the AvP films from canon in an act of sheer spite. I'm tired, and it's a conspiracy theory for which I have no evidence, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Sorry Dude, but I personally enjoy AVP(a guilty pleasure), and have no intention of blowing money on seeing Covenant, although he has made several films I like, none of them have been in the past 15 years

[Hatter76]

I should have posted that video of Scott farting during an Interview

[Hatter76]

starting at about 1:40

[Andrew NDB]

Well it looks like Ridley has successfully terminated the chance of any more Alien movies of any kind. Box office has flatlined without it even making its production and marketing budget back.