Should "The Source" be in canon?

[Andrew NDB]

In your opinion, should "The Source" be in canon?

[David McMurdo]

I'm divided on this. It may be awful in all kinds of ways, but it's the only conclusion to the canon arc that we're ever going to get. I also kind of like some of the basic concepts. The whole idea of the Source is a great way to give an immortal character a definitive conclusion without ending The Game itself or killing them off. I also like the whole implied idea of The Guardian and The Abbot being from some kind of Atlantis style, prehistoric civilization. It was just all executed terribly. The only idea I really dislike is that the immortals have been wrong about the purpose of The Game all along. The script needed a few more rewrites. If you're going to have the Source at all, it should have been like some golden opportunity that arises for the immortals every few thousand years or so—a kind of game within The Game. The winner gets mortality and the ability to have children, and the rest just continue on with The Game as normal. It's essentially a way to opt out of The Game without committing suicide or confining yourself to the Sanctuary, which seems like worse than death to me. You might as well behead yourself if you're willing to be restrained in a chair forever.

[Andrew NDB]

I'm divided on this. It may be awful in all kinds of ways, but it's the only conclusion to the canon arc that we're ever going to get.

That's the nail on the head, really.

I also kind of like some of the basic concepts. The whole idea of the Source is a great way to give an immortal character a definitive conclusion without ending The Game itself. I also like the whole implied idea of The Guardian and The Abbot being from some kind of Atlantis style, prehistoric civilization. It was just all executed terribly. The only idea I really dislike is that the immortals have been wrong about the purpose of The Game all along. The script needed a few more rewrites. If you're going to have the Source at all, it should have been like some golden opportunity that arises for the immortals every few thousand years or so—a kind of game within The Game. The winner gets mortality and the ability to have children, and the rest just continue on with The Game as normal. It's essentially a way to opt out of The Game without committing suicide or confining yourself to the Sanctuary, which seems like worse than death to me. You might as well behead yourself if you're willing to be restrained in a chair forever.

True. There's really nothing in it stating or even suggesting these are the last Immortals or that... whatever happened to Duncan and Anna is a Prize replacement. It's just it's own thing.

[n107]

Technically, there is more I'd like to add but I'm pressed for time now so look for me in the stars...

[Hatter76]

I remember on the old version of this Board, shortly after The Source was making it's way out of Russia, someone described the movie as being like "The Inside of a Toilet After Fajita Night"


There are definitely times, when the movie resembles it, and quite a bit of it is the Guardian.


As bad as I felt it was, I felt , and still feel the version that premiered as a SyFy Channel Original Movie, and subsequently DVD, was far worse, it actually made me Appreciate the version on that Russian DVD.

[Draknoir2]

It should be in a cannon... and fired at the SyFi Channel.

HL2 is more worthy of canonization,

[Colleengael]

It had a few good moments but I still want to know how Joe with no knees managed to get Duncan's dead weight up into the cab of that truck by himself. I guess it never occurred to the director to question how that was possible after meeting Jim in person.

At least we had fun joking about RoboJoe.

[Aleander]

Does it even matter at this point? If they were to make a better alternative, and also close to that time period, then sure. But as is, its Duncan's last hoorah, even if an incomprehensible one at that. And frankly, I like the idea that he exited the Game without having won the Prize, because he never followed it like Connor did, and was always more interested in living life outside the Game.

[Coolwater]

It never occurred to the director to question a lot of things. That film was a huge disappointment.

[Andrew NDB]

Does it even matter at this point? If they were to make a better alternative, and also close to that time period, then sure. But as is, its Duncan's last hoorah, even if an incomprehensible one at that. And frankly, I like the idea that he exited the Game without having won the Prize, because he never followed it like Connor did, and was always more interested in living life outside the Game.

That's actually a good way of looking at it. Though it wasn't like Connor was ever actively "playing" the Game. Someone attacks him? He kills them. Someone kidnaps his woman? He kills them. That sort of thing. There could be a case for Connor actually being a lot less Gamesman about things than Duncan... but then we didn't get to spend that much time with Connor.

[Aleander]

Between the two, Connor was always the one concerned about the state of the Game more than Duncan. Not that it ruled his life, he was just more of an elder statesman than Duncan, who was concerned, but was more concerned being the womanizer he was. He chastised Duncan for this in the debut tie-in novel.

[Saber Dog]

I read a fanfic somewhere years ago in which the whole Game was a mistake. The game was to be only among the Horsemen and the prize for taking the most heads was to be their leader for a hundred years. But other immortals heard about it and misunderstood. Methos resolves never to tell Duncan because it would upset Duncan.

I liked parts of the Source, but there was a lot that was horrible. I liked seeing a version of Methos who was not Adam. I liked the Guardian's attitude. The planets shifting their orbits and the speed thing were horrible. The end wasn't that different than H1 in someways. That fanfic would have upset some fans, but it would have been a neat twist.

[dubiousbystander]

The author now goes by Parda, and her opus is potentially still ongoing, though she reached a decent stop-point recently. I do mean opus. That series is loooooooong.

[Andrew NDB]

I read a fanfic somewhere years ago in which the whole Game was a mistake. The game was to be only among the Horsemen and the prize for taking the most heads was to be their leader for a hundred years.

I vaguely remember that fanfic.

But yeah, the most popular idea is that the rules of the Game, maybe the Game itself and what the Immortals think they know about it... it's a 10,000+ year old telephone game. Over the millennia and centuries certain details get warped, or twisted. What is now "You are supposed to go around, take all the other Immortals' heads and then accept the Prize!" might have began as something else entirely.

"The Source" wasn't, of course, ballsy enough to actually tackle something like that head-on, but rather just danced around it.

[Aleander]

It'd be interesting if the Series movies, had they been worked on about by intelligent writers and developed properly, could've worked with that concept to make it work believeably... but it was never going to happen in a universe where Ahriman existed. So, a demon can exist but the Game is a lie? Sure.

[Elskidor]

It's so bad that I barely remember it. I have zero interest to rewatch it either. Something about a big blob, Joe being screwed over, cannibals, unbelievable love story and Giovanni's hair. No clue how it ended or what the prize was or who won it or if there was one. I vote no.

[Aleander]

Its incredible that any movie could have those things. I think I gave up on the movie after the cannibals, because I could only take so much bullshit after orbital wobbles (to quote Spoony: "What?!"), obviously fake fat suits (that I can't believe were auctioned on ebay for thousands of dollars, BEFORE THE "FILM" EVEN CAME OUT!), a super fast buffoon of a villain with gay undertones (and I hate saying this as its an insult to gays, really) and Giovanni, the world's least convincing Priest ever.

[Takk]

The mere fact that it's the last thing in the series continuity to be made and so there is nothing that contradicts it, I can't justify not counting it as canon. Highlander 2, is blatantly removed by the series and Highlander 3. Highlander 3 can be included in series canon with minor alterations the same as the first film, but is debatable due to contradictions. But The Source? As bad as it may be, it's there, and it has never been removed by a new sequel, so unless the remake turns out to be an in continuity reboot instead, it will always be the end of the series canon... or, well, the end of Duncan's canon. The Search for Vengeance could technically be considered the end of the series canon, as it takes place after The Source and similarly has nothing to contradict its existence therein.

[Aleander]

At best, TSFV just takes place in the Series verse, just like Andrew and Jer's fan-films do. Side adventures set in an extended Series universe.

[Colleengael]

The short film Reunion with Joe, Methos and Amanda was written by David Abramowitz and directed by Don Paonessa was made after The Source. Those characters are still alive. There was also a short piece performed at one of the HLWW cons after the film that said Duncan had a bad dream about it. Since those two versions were written and performed by the actors and writers...I say that makes them Canon. The Source was a bad dream and is not canon..

[Takk]

Reunion was made after The Source, yes, but it is set in the present day, thus would take place at least near the year of its release, being 2008. The Source is set in a post apocalyptic future setting with a non-distinct year, however, we do have a year for the apocalyptic event, itself, thanks to the comics, and that event occurs in 2012, placing it a few years after Reunion. As such, they can easily stand together in canon. As for the skit at the convention, it may have been good for a laugh, but if we start counting skits at conventions as canon, even those that feature genuine cast members, some things (like Star Trek, for example) are going to become far more complicated than they already are, so it's always safer to ignore such things when discussing canon.

[Midnight Rambler]

I vote no.

[Tootsie Bee]

If we're talking about the TV show's canon, then yes. It's wonderful to see the Series continuity simultaneously burning out and fading away with this embarrassing dreck. This film is the perfect resolution to a storyline that went off its rocker and threw in a demon at the end of Season 5. If I were to reject this film, I'd also have to toss out every hint along the way that the Duncan story wasn't going to resolve itself with the same violent conclusion that the original movie opted for back in '86.

[Aleander]

Thats quite the nihilistic take on this dreck, but not without a point. Its a less of a surprise to see this film made after seeing how the set the precedent with the show's fifth season finale and onwards. Its just sad, because there was so much goodwill before then.

[Aleander]

On second thought, I think some of it is "canonical". There's no way to accept this film's interpretation of There Can Be Only One as the last word on that... to quote Spoony, "Fuck you, movie!"

[Andrew NDB]

It'd be interesting if the Series movies, had they been worked on about by intelligent writers and developed properly, could've worked with that concept to make it work believeably... but it was never going to happen in a universe where Ahriman existed. So, a demon can exist but the Game is a lie? Sure.

There is nothing concrete in "The Source" to indicate the Game is a lie. Though I'd have loved a movie to actually tackle that head-on and show that, and make an interesting story of it.

[Aleander]

Well, other than Anna's end narration, that is.

[Wilusa]

I don't think there can be any definition of Highlander canon, because there are such wild differences in quality among the various films/TV series. "The Source" is abysmal. But I recently looked at the original Highlander movie again, and realized I don't like it! So we'll all have our own ideas of canon - for me, HL:TS, Raven, and (with reservations) bits of that original film and Endgame. And if we choose, we can write our own continuations of the story in fan fiction - more comfortably than if the franchise's writers had given us a satisfactory ending!

[Colleengael]

They should have stuck with David's script instead of letting the director and Bill Panzer change it into something Adrian no longer recognized. Bill kept wanting to explain away the magic of their origins in the big screen. It never worked. Neither did the near future world gone to Hell settings.

[Aleander]

You didn't like the original?

That's... rare. Huh.

[Andrew NDB]

HEH HEH HEH